I don’t want to sound negative but………..

[Nilrem]

Originally Posted by steve

And back to the "created by man and man can undo" this just isn't true. Otherewise all encryption would be hacked - there are many which isn't - and there is almost the same programming up there on the sats which is encoded by something other than N3 - PowerVu is an excellent example of that - no crack and it's been around for a lot longer than Nagravision. Also even Dave's encryption, videoguard, has been around for at least as long as DN has, and it has never been cracked - you heard it right - Dave was not cracked - only the cards. Which to a very large simularity, the same situation occured with Dish. Only the cards were cracked - not really the encryption itself for the most part anyway.

Steve

Steve....

what do you constitute as a crack? the Tiniest hole in 1 or even 3 or 4 places aand a wall or foundation will crack. Since U seem to Call people out on Knowing thiS as fact i would like to point out that a crack is not always the blowing up of a code. most hackers find a way around or a pinpoint hole to crawl through.

[ripp01]

Originally Posted by twobadrams

I don't see anyone charging for a IKS fix....They would just be asking dish to come and get me!!!! They make their money on sales of new boxes. Why would you want even more heat than they are already have on them??????

Not yet as they are making $$$ selling boxes and dongle, but eventually, if there is no competition in a standalone, I can see it happening and wouldn't put it past some one like nfusion. If you have heard of EKS, where you can log in to their servers for one time fee of 100$, now it is said to be 100$ per year. and now there is talk about making it into a smaller monthly fee. How will DN get to them if they are unable to find them. Not like they are taking out ads on DN. But the greed will settle into play if there are enough ppl willing to pay.
Look at who the major players were that had good to decent support, they are selling dongles not releasing files. VS & CS are history in NA, SV is IKS, KBOX a knockoff of CS is IKS, CNX is IKS, CW is in cardsharing, Pansat is in litigation.
If Kwak does find a way to stay out of the clink, he may just move to SA, where he has been selling alot of boxes and once they switch to N3, VS once again may come out with a fix for N3 but based out of some south american location, hostile to the US. But it is a big IF he stays out of jail and IF he does move his operations south.

[steve]

Nilrem - noone is calling anyone out. I was building on the original post and one of the other's who also mentioned the N3 not being cracked (hacked) yet in Europe.

My comments are based on some facts which are known. One being that Dave's encryption was never cracked, hacked or whatever else you want to call it. The hackers learned how to open the card and modify the code inside the card. Most of the DN hacks were copies of the cards being emulated within FTA boxes. This is not technically hacking the actual encryption, but hacking the cards and then copying the method used to decrypt the signals.

Comparing a hole in a dike holding back water and cracking to "cracking" computer code are not really the same thing.

There are software hackers out there who are "hacking" protection systems built into computer programs, but all they are really doing is bypassing the security created by asking for a serial key or whatever. Hacking a satellite signal is a little more than this.

I wrote in another thread about the house with the cookies in relationship to Dave's cards. I think to a point this applies to this situation as well.

This is my explaination of what I think cracking is - without getting too technical about it.

A true hack to encryption would be to decrypt the signal without using the card information. This really and honestly hasn't been done. Which, I believe is the reason why it always too soo long to fix the ECM issues in the previous versions of the Nagravision code. Some of them too a month or more to resolve. I think, and I could be wrong as I'm not a hacker, but a computer programmer, that the issue is that someone needed to get into the card to see what was happening to the signal.

From my knowledge, the CAMs only decide if the user is a subscriber to whatever channel you're trying to view and then send the decryption key to the reciever to decrypt the stream. Obviously, it's a lot more technical than this, but in a nut shell isn't this how it all works?

Although not a hacker, I'm also not stupid, nor am I totally unknowledgable about software and data streams. I understand algorythms(sp) and have a good grasp of how many things work.

It just seems to me that since most of your other hacks have come from overseas, and since N3 has been overseas for a long time, that if this was truly hackable in a "usable" form, it would have been done already.

I think the talk about everyone waiting for the USA to completely use the system is stupid, in the fact, that there are many other encryption methods being used and those are not going to change to a Nagravision method just because it's there to use.

I think Nagravision has a lot to loose though if anything does ever happen and are going to protect this version to the best of their ability. Since the previous two versions were compromised, no matter how it was done, it's to their benefit and financial future to be sure this one doesn't get compromised.

Wouldn't you agree on this at least? I don't think we will ever agree on everything, and that's ok - it's how non-angry debates and discussions can progress. But there are some things I'm sure we can agree on. One being it is to DN's financial benefit as well as Nagravision's to prevent any compromise of this new encryption. Or if it is, to keep itunder control at least. We can agree on this right?

Steve

[UncleBill]

Another good discussion with some informed opinions. I think at some point egos take over. I've seen this happen before, and I think it may happen again with N3. The peeps that are working on this are a very smart and proud group. There is a certain amount of competition and one-upmanship in the group, and we never really get a chance to see that as it evolves. What does happen though, is that an individual gains status and bragging rights among his or her peers, and that's what it's all about for many of the serious coders. The reality is, that individuals work the problem, share with close confidants, and come up with the solution. The image you all imagine with Megodtron, and Cyphris in a warehouse somewhere working 24/7 to be the first is a fallacy. Truth is, it'll happen, and when it does, it will be the product of many hour of trial and error by many people that are probably not directly associated with any manufacturer. The people involved will probably reap little if any financial gain, but they will know in their hearts that they are smarter than the guys at Kudelski Group, way smarter than you and me, and that's all they need to feel fulfilled. Just MHO, but seems to be the way things have shaken out in the recent past.

B

[Nilrem]

Originally Posted by steve

Nilrem - noone is calling anyone out. I was building on the original post and one of the other's who also mentioned the N3 not being cracked (hacked) yet in Europe.

I am not saying you are calling people out... just calling out people on this point. Every time someone says it can be hacked you say no it can't. One of the simple facts of life is if it can be made it can be unmade.

Originally Posted by steve

My comments are based on some facts which are known. One being that Dave's encryption was never cracked, hacked or whatever else you want to call it. The hackers learned how to open the card and modify the code inside the card. Most of the DN hacks were copies of the cards being emulated within FTA boxes. This is not technically hacking the actual encryption, but hacking the cards and then copying the method used to decrypt the signals.

For the purpose of what almost everyone is talking about... this is HACKING. No one cares if the encryption is totally blown or if they find a work around. The point is that people consider this being cracked or hacked. You seem to want to argue a simple term and blow it into something totally different. Most people do not know or care what a true hack or hacker is. Just the final result. I working stand alone fix. For anyone on the site if there is a file released it will be called HACKED.

Originally Posted by steve

Comparing a hole in a dike holding back water and cracking to "cracking" computer code are not really the same thing.

There are software hackers out there who are "hacking" protection systems built into computer programs, but all they are really doing is bypassing the security created by asking for a serial key or whatever. Hacking a satellite signal is a little more than this.

I really think you need to get past this word. This is hacking. The bypass or work around of anything can be considered a hack.

Originally Posted by steve

Wouldn't you agree on this at least? I don't think we will ever agree on everything, and that's ok - it's how non-angry debates and discussions can progress. But there are some things I'm sure we can agree on. One being it is to DN's financial benefit as well as Nagravision's to prevent any compromise of this new encryption. Or if it is, to keep itunder control at least. We can agree on this right?

Steve

Steve... of course we do not have to agree. Everyone knows I love a good debate, but for a debate people have to have a more open mind. You ask us to see and agree with what you say, but we have the same right. Your single mindedness is what causes the most trouble for us. We agree to see your point, but you seem to have the inability to see that there COULD be a fix. We are not saying it will NEVER come... we are not saying it WILL come... we are saying that it COULD come.

I agree with some of your points and find some of what you say to be valid, but the problem is that you, for the most part, do not agree or see the other points.

[xky11]

i think Mythbusters can have a hell of a show and let them look into it. N3 can it be hacked? what do you guys think Possible or Busted lmaol. Let them geeks try it out Haha.

[steve]

Ok, I will agree that a work-around would be considered a hack. The result being, the original version is usable now when before it wasn't. So, yes, that would be a hack of the original version of whatever it is.

I honestly have no problem with seeing other points, but sometimes those points really don't have much weight only because they are based on rumors rather than what's really happening or happened.

the original poster of this thread stated the same thing basically that I have stood by. That was the only reason for posting in this particular thread. It appeared like there was at least a few others who agreed with my position on this.

Whether it's turns out to right or wrong doesn't really matter all that much. It's a good debate either way. And in most debates there is usually two sides and each side tries to convince the rest of the viewing audience that their side is the more right side of whatever the debate is about. So, in that definition this is a good debate, as both you and UB have stated.

I don't like to argue about things, even though some here think I do exactly that, it's all information and creating conversation about one or the other opinions.

If I'm upsetting anyone that is not my intention.

Anyone that has been here since the early days of the site knows full well that my information is generally thought out. Maybe in this particular debate it isn't based on solid facts, because in this subject, there really aren't that many solid facts yet to base anything on. Other than history.

You and others may very well be correct that a hack will happen some day. Some others and myself may be correct that it won't happen. And still there are others who believe it has happened and being kept secret. It is quite likely those are the really true facts in the case. This we really have no proof of - at least not yet. Maybe we never will find out.

But from my point of view, there are a few things which are factual - IKS is working using card or key sharing and is only a hack using the definition that it is a work-around. Europe has had N3 for a lot longer that NA has and they haven't been able to come up with a hack, other than IKS. DN and Nagravision stand to loose a ton of money if a real hack ever happens.

With those facts in mind, it is unlikely that they will allow that to come about and they have been proving that they will fight this to the end. which means either run out of money, which would not be good for anyone - or the coding hackers will give up or go deeper into hiding.

It just makes sense, and I think most will agree. The only debate to this is whether DN really would loose money if a hack appeared. Some don't believe it. I happen to think they will due to their possible loss of programming material, as I stated in other threads.

That makes sense as well.

What's your take on these points?

Steve

[steve]

LOL XKY - not too sure that would be something they would even attempt to delve into for many reasons. but I like the idea - they seem to be able to prove anything Myth related. And at this point in time, I think it is a myth and maybe should be busted by them. LOL

Steve

[xky11]

i think we both agree on that. and yeah it would be like a dream show that i bet all pirates would watch and the ratings would sky rocket then again we all know Charlie would give the Discovery channel the boot lmaol. i think we all have many takes and opinions on this N3 bottom line is we can wait and wait and wait some more until and if posibble a fix comes out. if not oh well something else would be the next thing that people would get into pirating like Cable boxes. Comcast must be afraid and perhaps they wish N3 gets hacked as the modding of their cable boxes is already possible but kept not as open as FTA DN files was. Oh yeah i say for now N3 is a myth lmaol.

[lobo]

Originally Posted by steve

It just makes sense, and I think most will agree. The only debate to this is whether DN really would loose money if a hack appeared. Some don't believe it. I happen to think they will due to their possible loss of programming material, as I stated in other threads.

That makes sense as well.
What's your take on these points?

it makes sense, but I am not really so sure. In fact, I'd almost see all sat tv going under as improvements to internet keep happening.

If it were merely loss of programming, due to piracy, well..... it sure took cable a LONG time to perfect their anti piracy...... and cable has been around for a couple decades now!
Dish and DTV are a bit more recent. Will Dish go under? Maybe not, lest there be no competition, making DTV a monopoly.

Also, it's gonna happen.... somebody will find a way to pirate it, and things will start over again. its a given! Cable used to be able to be hacked with nothing more than a microwave antenna and a filter on the back of an analog tv! Then you needed a box...then a combo.... Your Galaxy sats used to be wide open, and then as they started locking those out, there used to be monthly codes passed on to people to open it up again. Last I heard, whatever is left seems to be wide open and called True FTA now......

Is it POSSIBLE that DN will go out of business? Yeah, it is. Do I believe DTV has not been cracked? I dunno, last I heard it was kinda like Fight Club....first rule isyou don;t talk about Fight Club! In fact, I know a guy that is into TRUE FTA right now, that claims to have "heard" that it HAS been cracked.... and this is the same guy who, like you, claims there will be no NAG3 fix..... so, at what point has he lied to us?

Anything is possible, but the likelihood of PIRACY being the death of DN is about the same as it being the death of CD sales..... when we all know the data indicated that cd sales ROSE during the Napster times, due to more wide exposure, and only DROPPED when a few things happened: Napster "sold out", as did MP3.com, The economy got worse, The record companies wouldn;t ALLOW groups to give out their own music as appreciation to their fans a la Offspring who tried to......

Really, I personally don;t CARE if certain businesses fail, and think the banks and GM should have been allowed to crumble just as any OTHER business would have! I'm sick of the greed, the lack of decent health care, an automotive industry bent on KEEPING us reliant on foreign oil rather than safe economic and environmentally friendly energy sources, and many other things wrong with the world that can only be solved by recalling NAFTA, shutting down the World Bank, eliminating globalization, and incarcerating the upper echelon 1% ..... and of course, we all know THAT will never happen either!

No, I really don't think the piracy excuse washes. There are many other ways to curb piracy if not eliminate it, which would be financially beneficial to ALL involved. Greed and pride won't let it happen though. If they fail, it will be from their own poor service, poor customer service, poor quality, poor channel choice (hey, I see they STILL don;t have the anime network,lol!!!!!), poor pricing, overspending on advertising ( I am ALWAYS getting unsolicited ads from DN in my mailbox and newspaper, not to mention spam email!!! ), and overspending on faulty and overpriced "counter measures" like Nag3.

THAT is what will be their downfall, especially in the current economy, which is NOT on the rise as some would have us believe. In fact my area is the highest unemployed in the NATION...go figure! If they, or ANYone, want to survive, they need to start providing BETTER service to the customer, MORE service, BETTER choices, and LOWER prices! Cut down their cost by cutting down in advertising waste! That stuff lines more litterboxes than anything else!

[Alphonse]

I believe that if you think of the chip as an Enigma machine, you will understand the problem.

[steve]

Lobo I have to agree about the mailout ads - they are getting worse and worse. Of course, most don't come directly from DN, they come from their dealers for the most part. But it would help eliminate some of the anti-DN feelings people have about them.

One other things that probably would help them, is selling programming ala-carte like the BUD providers do. Then they could just cancel the stuff noone really wants and cut their costs down.

that really makes sense to me.

Steve